Japanese-Style Bun Dough 湯種麵糰
Pai Pau
Mexican Buns
This is the Japanese-style 65°C water-roux bun dough that has been floating around the Chinese cyber world for the past 2-3 years since a Chinese cookbook called ‘65°C湯種麵包’ was published around 2004. It has been very popular with the Chinese cyber baking community because all sorts of recipes using this bun dough have been popping up all over the Chinese websites the past couple of years.
The innovation of this dough is the inclusion of a ‘water roux’, that is cooking portion of the flour and water first (as opposed to cooking flour and butter for a proper roux in the traditional sense) before adding it to the rest of the ingredients. The water roux is supposed to allow the dough to absorb more liquid due to the gelatinization of the starch in the flour, thereby allowing the finished buns to have a fine soft texture and not get stale as quickly. I have been meaning to try it out for a while now but just never got around to it as I rarely make my own breads or buns since I don’t have a bread machine. So every time I want to make breads or buns, it is always hand-power all the way! I was hankering for some Chinese-style sweet buns recently, so I finally decided to try the recipe out. So out it came from my cookbook files for a trial run. I decided to make two different types of bun from the dough, one the Row Buns or ‘Pai Pau’ in Cantonese and the other the ubiquitous Asian-Style Mexican Buns.
Well, I am happy to report that the buns are really soft and fluffy without the use of any artificial bread improver or bread softener. Although any Asian-style buns made from the more usual Sweet Bun Dough can be made using this Water-Roux Bun Dough, but note that this dough has a slightly higher proportion of egg and butter, so the buns made from it will be richer! I have adjusted the original recipe and also included some vanilla custard powder into the mix to provide a very fragrant aroma to the finished buns.
Adapted from the recipe '基本65°C湯種麵糰' in '65°C湯種麵包' by 陳郁芬.
Water-Roux Bun Dough 基本湯種麵糰
Makes 16 portions.
[Ingredients]
325g bread flour
130g plain flour + 20g vanilla custard powder, or cornflour (or just use 150g plain flour)
20g milk powder
50g caster sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1 sachet (7g or 2 1/2 tsp) instant dry yeast
2 eggs, lightly beaten
100ml (approx.) lukewarm water, adjust as necessary (I only needed 75ml for this batch)
75g butter, cubed
Water Roux * (湯種):
25g (just under 2 tbsp) bread flour
125ml (1/2 cup) water
* Water Roux is basically 1 part bread flour to 5 parts water.
http://cafeoftheeast.blogspot.com/
[Preparation]
Water Roux (湯種):
Mix flour and water in a small saucepan. Cook over low to medium heat, stirring continuously until it reaches 65ºC. It should have thickened to a paste at this stage, that is when you stir you can see the bottom of the pan. Remove from heat, place a cling wrap over the paste and leave until lukewarm, or room temperature, before using. (Alternatively if you don’t have a thermometer, cook as before until it just starts to thicken, then continue to cook for about 1 more minute before removing from heat.) This water roux can be kept in an airtight container after cooling in the refrigerator for 1 day if not used immediately. However DO NOT USE if it turns grey in colour, that means it has gone bad.
For the Bun Dough:
1. Sift bread flour, plain flour, custard powder, milk powder, caster sugar and salt onto the working surface. Add instant dry yeast and mix well. Form the flour mixture into a well. Add lightly beaten eggs and lukewarm water roux and mix in. Gradually add just enough lukewarm water to form into a slightly sticky, soft dough. Knead for 10 minutes until smooth and elastic. During hand kneading, the dough also needs to be thrown onto the working surface once every few minutes between kneading to improve the dough structure. (I usually just pick up the dough to about head-high and throw it down onto the working surface 10 to 20 times every few minutes between kneading.)
2. Knead in butter until incorporated. Form the dough into a round ball and let it rise until double in size in a large greased bowl, cover with cling wrap (should take about 1 hour in warm weather, longer in winter months). To test if the dough has risen properly, dip a finger into bread or plain flour and poke down into the centre of the dough as far as your finger will go and pull out again – the hole should remain if it is ready. If the dough springs back, then it is not ready, continue to prove further.
3. Punch down, knead briefly. Then divide into 16 equal portions. The easiest way is to first divide equally into 4 larger portions first, then divide each of these again into quarters each. Form each into balls and let rest for 10 minutes.
4. Shape and fill as desired to make into buns of your choice (to make Row Buns or Mexican Buns, see below, or click here for making Polo Buns). Place all finished buns on a greased baking sheet, lightly cover with cling wrap, and let rise until double in size (about 1 hour in warm weather, longer in winter months).
5. Bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 12-15 minutes.
Row Buns / Pai Pau 排包
Makes 8 rows.
[Ingredients]
½ portion Water-Roux Bun Dough
1 egg, lightly beaten for eggwash
Melted butter
[Preparation]
Take each of the 8 small divided balls and roll out with a rolling pin to about 15-18cm long. Roll up, Swiss-roll style, from the long side into a long cigar shape. Tuck both pointy ends down under for a better presentation. Arrange close together side-by-side almost touching each other, sealed side down, on a greased baking tray. Let rise until double in size. Brush with eggwash and bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 15 minutes, or until golden brown in colour. Brush with melted butter immediately after removing from oven.
Mexican Buns
Makes 8 buns.
[Ingredients]
½ portion Water-Roux Bun Dough
Mexican Topping:
100g butter
100g caster sugar
1 teaspoon mocha coffee paste (optional)
1 egg, lightly beaten
100g plain flour
[Preparation]
1. To prepare the Mexican Topping: Cream softened butter and sugar until pale. Beat in coffee paste and egg until combine. Fold in flour. Transfer into a piping bag fixed with a 1cm round nozzle.
2. Let the 8 divided balls rise until double in size on a greased baking sheet. When ready, pipe the Mexican Topping onto the risen balls – start from the centre top of each ball and pipe in a spiral fashion to cover about 2/3 of the surface area from the top.
3. Bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 12-15 minutes.
[Note]
1. Please note this recipe uses 1 standard cup of 250ml, 1 tablespoon of 20ml and 1 teaspoon of 5ml.
2. The size of egg used is about 60g (includes shell) unless otherwise stated.
The innovation of this dough is the inclusion of a ‘water roux’, that is cooking portion of the flour and water first (as opposed to cooking flour and butter for a proper roux in the traditional sense) before adding it to the rest of the ingredients. The water roux is supposed to allow the dough to absorb more liquid due to the gelatinization of the starch in the flour, thereby allowing the finished buns to have a fine soft texture and not get stale as quickly. I have been meaning to try it out for a while now but just never got around to it as I rarely make my own breads or buns since I don’t have a bread machine. So every time I want to make breads or buns, it is always hand-power all the way! I was hankering for some Chinese-style sweet buns recently, so I finally decided to try the recipe out. So out it came from my cookbook files for a trial run. I decided to make two different types of bun from the dough, one the Row Buns or ‘Pai Pau’ in Cantonese and the other the ubiquitous Asian-Style Mexican Buns.
Well, I am happy to report that the buns are really soft and fluffy without the use of any artificial bread improver or bread softener. Although any Asian-style buns made from the more usual Sweet Bun Dough can be made using this Water-Roux Bun Dough, but note that this dough has a slightly higher proportion of egg and butter, so the buns made from it will be richer! I have adjusted the original recipe and also included some vanilla custard powder into the mix to provide a very fragrant aroma to the finished buns.
Adapted from the recipe '基本65°C湯種麵糰' in '65°C湯種麵包' by 陳郁芬.
Water-Roux Bun Dough 基本湯種麵糰
Makes 16 portions.
[Ingredients]
325g bread flour
130g plain flour + 20g vanilla custard powder, or cornflour (or just use 150g plain flour)
20g milk powder
50g caster sugar
1 teaspoon salt
1 sachet (7g or 2 1/2 tsp) instant dry yeast
2 eggs, lightly beaten
100ml (approx.) lukewarm water, adjust as necessary (I only needed 75ml for this batch)
75g butter, cubed
Water Roux * (湯種):
25g (just under 2 tbsp) bread flour
125ml (1/2 cup) water
* Water Roux is basically 1 part bread flour to 5 parts water.
http://cafeoftheeast.blogspot.com/
[Preparation]
Water Roux (湯種):
Mix flour and water in a small saucepan. Cook over low to medium heat, stirring continuously until it reaches 65ºC. It should have thickened to a paste at this stage, that is when you stir you can see the bottom of the pan. Remove from heat, place a cling wrap over the paste and leave until lukewarm, or room temperature, before using. (Alternatively if you don’t have a thermometer, cook as before until it just starts to thicken, then continue to cook for about 1 more minute before removing from heat.) This water roux can be kept in an airtight container after cooling in the refrigerator for 1 day if not used immediately. However DO NOT USE if it turns grey in colour, that means it has gone bad.
For the Bun Dough:
1. Sift bread flour, plain flour, custard powder, milk powder, caster sugar and salt onto the working surface. Add instant dry yeast and mix well. Form the flour mixture into a well. Add lightly beaten eggs and lukewarm water roux and mix in. Gradually add just enough lukewarm water to form into a slightly sticky, soft dough. Knead for 10 minutes until smooth and elastic. During hand kneading, the dough also needs to be thrown onto the working surface once every few minutes between kneading to improve the dough structure. (I usually just pick up the dough to about head-high and throw it down onto the working surface 10 to 20 times every few minutes between kneading.)
2. Knead in butter until incorporated. Form the dough into a round ball and let it rise until double in size in a large greased bowl, cover with cling wrap (should take about 1 hour in warm weather, longer in winter months). To test if the dough has risen properly, dip a finger into bread or plain flour and poke down into the centre of the dough as far as your finger will go and pull out again – the hole should remain if it is ready. If the dough springs back, then it is not ready, continue to prove further.
3. Punch down, knead briefly. Then divide into 16 equal portions. The easiest way is to first divide equally into 4 larger portions first, then divide each of these again into quarters each. Form each into balls and let rest for 10 minutes.
4. Shape and fill as desired to make into buns of your choice (to make Row Buns or Mexican Buns, see below, or click here for making Polo Buns). Place all finished buns on a greased baking sheet, lightly cover with cling wrap, and let rise until double in size (about 1 hour in warm weather, longer in winter months).
5. Bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 12-15 minutes.
Row Buns / Pai Pau 排包
Makes 8 rows.
[Ingredients]
½ portion Water-Roux Bun Dough
1 egg, lightly beaten for eggwash
Melted butter
[Preparation]
Take each of the 8 small divided balls and roll out with a rolling pin to about 15-18cm long. Roll up, Swiss-roll style, from the long side into a long cigar shape. Tuck both pointy ends down under for a better presentation. Arrange close together side-by-side almost touching each other, sealed side down, on a greased baking tray. Let rise until double in size. Brush with eggwash and bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 15 minutes, or until golden brown in colour. Brush with melted butter immediately after removing from oven.
Mexican Buns
Makes 8 buns.
[Ingredients]
½ portion Water-Roux Bun Dough
Mexican Topping:
100g butter
100g caster sugar
1 teaspoon mocha coffee paste (optional)
1 egg, lightly beaten
100g plain flour
[Preparation]
1. To prepare the Mexican Topping: Cream softened butter and sugar until pale. Beat in coffee paste and egg until combine. Fold in flour. Transfer into a piping bag fixed with a 1cm round nozzle.
2. Let the 8 divided balls rise until double in size on a greased baking sheet. When ready, pipe the Mexican Topping onto the risen balls – start from the centre top of each ball and pipe in a spiral fashion to cover about 2/3 of the surface area from the top.
3. Bake in preheated 190°C oven for about 12-15 minutes.
[Note]
1. Please note this recipe uses 1 standard cup of 250ml, 1 tablespoon of 20ml and 1 teaspoon of 5ml.
2. The size of egg used is about 60g (includes shell) unless otherwise stated.
Labels: Asian Buns and Pancakes
posted by SeaDragon @ 3.8.07
56 Comments:
Ah, Seadragon, you are such a godsend! I find those Chinese websites and blogs so irresistable, but can't read Chinese, REALLY frustrating!
Thanks a million for this recipe, really appreciate it.
MMMMMMMMMMmmmmm......
Looks so nice, will get a try after I back from holiday. Hehhheee..... can't wait for trying!!!!!! Good Job!!! Thanks for sharing your recipes and experience too!!!!!!
yummy yum. SD have you heard about mochi bread (popular in Taiwan)? I think it is making its presence here in singapore as I see some bakeries having it now.
Hi! Seadragon
It's the first time I hv posted a comment here, I really admire the nice & fluffy buns u hv made. As I am also in Melbourne, can u pls share with me how long does it take to proof the dough in winter & do u use any method to raise the room temperature?
TIA.
Cheers.
Melbourne Gal
Caprice,
You're welcome.
QQ red apple,
Thanks, hope you have success with the recipe!
Edith,
Yes, I've heard about the mochi bread a while ago from Taiwanese websites. However the few recipes I've seen used something called 'pre-mixed mochi flour' to make the bread. As I don't know what that is, don't think I can try it ;p
Hi Melbourne Gal,
Thanks. For the first prove, it's something like 1 1/2 to 2 hours depending on the day, for this prove I just leave it on the kitchen bench to prove.
For the final prove, what I do is turn on my gas oven on the lowest setting & put my tray of buns in (covered with cling wrap), open the oven door ajar and prove that way until double in size, takes about 1 to 1 1/2 hours (but have to check once in a while to make sure the temperature inside is not too warm). The other method is NOT to turn on the oven, but place 1 or 2 big bowls of hot water on the lowest shelf and place the tray of buns on the middle or top shelf and porve that way with door closed. HTH.
Hi ! Seadragon
Thx for your prompt & very detailed description of the proving process. I know it takes lots of patience in winter to make buns.Being a lazy person, I hv opted to make loaves in the breadmaker in winter but your nice looking buns do make me crave for some soft fluffy buns now. BTW, which suburb are u from? I am fr Doncaster East.
Thank you so very much ! Cheers.
Melbourne Gal
Seadragon, hope you don't mind another question.
For 2nd proving, after your buns have doubled in size in the warm oven, do you have to take them out again because the oven needs to be pre-heated for the final baking? Do they shrink again in the cold whilst waiting for the oven to heat up?
Thanks.
Hi SD, I've been a silent admirer of your blog for a while. I'm delurking because these buns look so good! I would like to try them out. May I ask, in the original recipe, what is the amount for bread flour and plain flour. I don't have custard powder or cornflour and don't feel like getting it just to make this. Thanks so much! And keep up the great work with the blog.
Melbourne Gal,
You're welcome.
I'm in Nth Melb.
Caprice,
Yes, take out from the oven while you heat up the oven to the required temperature, only takes about 10 mins or thereabout. The dough should not shrink as the air is already trapped inside by the high-protein dough.
BTW, if the weather is really cold, you can also prove in the same way inside the oven for the first prove.
Lynnette,
Thank you :) The plain flour+custard powder portion in the original recipe is actually cake flour. But you can use 150g plain flour (or cake flour) instead of the (130g plain flour+20g custard flour) in my adjusted version.
The original recipe for savoury bun dough is (makes about 9 buns):
195g bread flour; 90g cake flour; 12g milk powder; 30g caster sugar; 6g salt; 6g instant yeast; 60g egg; 65g water; 75g water roux; 45g unsalted cultured butter
There's also a sweet bun dough recipe which I'll post in the next few days.
Thanks Seadragon. Your recipes are the best, especially for us Orientals in Australia :) Just can't wait to try out your water roux Japanese buns! It sounds like the "secret recipe" behind those super soft buns in Asian bakeries hehe :)
Caprice,
You're welcome. They really do taste very like the ones from the Asian bakeries, lol
Hi SD
Do u hv the book on 65C water roux method? If yes, where did u get it fr?
May I ask whether any Asian bread recipe can be adapted to include the water roux ? If yes, is there a formula to work with?
TIA.
Cheers.
Melbourne Gal
Melbourne Gal,
No, I don't have the book, haven't seen it at the Chinese bookshops. I just googled and found a lot of recipes from the book posted by Chinese bloggers.
There are three basic recipes using the water roux as far as I can gather, one for sweet bun dough, one for savoury bun dough and one for making bread loaf. I assumed you can read Chinese, if you google for 湯種 麵包 吐司, it is very easy to find a lot of recipes for each dough, then you can work out the baker's percentage for each type of dough for the formula.
Hi SD!
I made a batch of pai pau & red bean buns yesterday based on your water-roux recipe. Everything went well until the final proving. I went a bit overboard with the hot water in the oven, as a result, the tray of red bean buns were overproved & very tough as a result. The pai pau was not that affected as the tray was on the top shelf.
I hvn't been a very good student, hv I? Will try again without steaming up the whole oven.
Will update u on the outcome.
BTW, I hv been to some taiwanese blogs that discussed abt this tang zhong method.So far, I hv yet to come across the savoury recipe.
Thanks again for the info.
Ciao.
Melbourne Gal
Melbourne Gal,
Oh dear, maybe the water was too hot and killed off some of the yeast on the lower shelf? Try to keep the temperature inside about 40C or lower for the final prove, I have a thermometer inside my oven to check the temperature inside. Good luck with your next batch :)
On those blogs, the savoury dough is the one with 195g bread flour, the sweet dough one use 210g bread flour (that is if they haven't adjusted the recipe).
Hi SD, thanks so much for providing all the useful details. Woohoo! I think I want to try all 3 versions of this roux bread (greedy yah?). Do you think it would be possible for you to post the loaf version in the comments here too? Thanks for being so kind and patient!
Oh btw, just would like to check with you... I noticed that in the version you made, you reduced the amount of yeast quite a bit. THe original you posted in the comments used about 2.1% yeast? But I think in your main post, it's about only 1.5%. Did you find that this made the bread denser and heavier? Just wondering...
Thanks so much, SD. Really appreciate it!
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lynnette,
Regarding yeast - remember it's a living organism, so it will multipy/grow under favourable conditions. Even though I have reduced the amount of yeast used, it will still do the same job, just takes a bit longer to prove. I just felt it's a nuisance to open another 1/2 packet of yeast when a lesser amount will still do the same job, albeit a little longer. Also from past experience, when they take longer to prove, they develop better flavour and aroma.
Since the original recipe uses a larger amount they will prove very fast, about 40 mins for each prove, while mine will takes around 60-90 mins depending. I'm not sure of the reason why the need for fast proving in the original recipe, maybe because of the raw egg in the recipe...
HTH.
Hi SD,
Thanks sooooo much for typing out the recipe. You're the best! Okie, I'm going to find some time to try out the different versions. Haha!
Great tip on the yeast! I'm going to keep that in mind.
Thanks again!
Hi SD,I'm staying in Dubai and I cant seem to find any bread flour here! They only have all-purpose flour and atta flour. What do you think I can use to substitude the bread flour? I found 1 brand that says its for bread and cakes but the protien is also just 10%. Do you think I can use that? I am also new to your web site and very excited exploring it everyday and seeing your recipes makes my tummy rumbles..
Food lover
Hi SeaDragon, I have been admiring all your recipes, especially the buns. They all look so yummy! By the way do you have the recipe for char siew pau, those they serve in yam cha restaurant? Not the steam one from coffee shops in Msia that doesn't 'smile'. I heard that those smiling ones needs to use left over dough or mother dough?
Desperate
lynnette,
You're welcome :)
Food lover,
Can you find Italian pizza flour? This should be equivalent to bread flour.
Otherwise, see if you can get 'bread mix' which is pre-mixed flour ready for making bread. Use it to substitute for bread flour, but you must omit the salt and reduce some sugar in the ingredients since the mix already has these in it.
One other option is to buy gluten flour if it's available, then use all-purpose flour and add the gluten flour according to the amount specified on the packet. This method is not as good because the bread will not be as soft.
Desperate,
Thanks. I have a couple of recipes for the 'smiling' Char Siew Pau from Chinese websites, one using mother dough and the other do not. However the only time I tried making it a couple of years ago was not a success, probably because then I was just learning about making things using yeast. If you would like these recipes let me know, I will post them in my forum (as it's not appropriate posting them under this topic, they will be hard to find in the future), but you have to be a member there to access the recipes.
Food lover,
Here's a page with good info on Italian flour:
http://www.fornobravo.com/brick_oven_cooking/
pizza_ingredients/flour.html
Hi SD,
Ya I would love to have those recipes and I have already register in your forum. Thank you so much for being so generous and helpful.
Ta, Desperate
Hi SD, I manage to find organic bread flour from UK. It's so expensiv! But for the cake flour I use all purpose flour and corn flour, and for the rest of the ingredient I follow exacly the same that I use granular sugar instead of castor sugar as I have big bag sitting in my pantry. A rebellous student am I!By the way I used the water roux sweet bun dough recipe for the cocktail bun. Proving here in dubai is not a problem but my buns were heavy and more of the pastry dough type. Not fluffy like yours! The filling is so yummy! By the way the buns should be bake on top or bottom of the oven? Can you tell me what was my main problem?
Thanks for the infor of the italian website.
Food lover
Food lover,
Sorry to hear about your 'heavy' buns :(
Have you made much breads/buns before? When I first started making yeast-based buns/breads, I had the same 'heavy' results the first few times (& I gave up making breads/buns for more than a year ;p before I had the courage to try again), because I was using the wrong ineffective kneading method. That said I'm assuming your proving went well, because that can cause 'heaviness' in the end result if not proved till double in size.
The problem also sounds like the kneading process was not done to the full extend. I assume you kneaded by hand?
When you knead by hand and not too experienced in this area, got to practice more to get the hang of it. The kneading process I now used is sort of push the dough, starting from the middle, away from yourself with one hand, while at the same time, use the other hand (fingers) to pull the dough (the end nearer to you) towards yourself, so that the dough is stretched in both direction. Then the part of the dough that has been pushed away, you fold it back towards yourself and continue again. During this kneading process, also occasionally pick up the dough and throw it down a few times. So it is sort of knead a few minutes, then throw a few times, then back to kneading. HTH.
Regarding your other question, I usually baked in the middle of the oven. And my oven is bottom heat only and it's a gas oven.
Hi SD, I did make bread before just using the yeast and milk powder, but my 1st time with the water roux. You think it might be the water roux not done properly? Ya I didn't really do much throwing as there wasn't much space in my kitchen as i was doing the kneading in a bowl. I did the the pushing away from centre of dough but not the fingers pulling away. Do we use fingers to knead back again for the other hand?
Ya the other problem is I was baking with tray on top of the oven and even the bottom was slightly burnt. I only bake for 12min and my gas oven was on minimum. Sorry my oven has no temperature mark, just min, max and medium. Very frustrating, la. But I will try again till I succeed.
Food lover
Food lover,
Oh, sorry I had to make an assumption, so you've success in making bread before. Regarding your question about kneading, once you fold back after pushing away, you fold it back to the end where you pulled towards yourself, so no need to knead back at this end. For hand kneading, the throwing process is quite important for making soft/fluffy buns, so don't ignore this throwing process. I actually simplified the throwing method. Originally it's suggested that you pick up one end of the dough with one hand then 'slap' the other end on the table. Slap until the dough is stretched longer, then fold the long end back, and start 'slapping' again. But I had done things like breaking the dough as I was 'slapping' and it flew away and ended up on the floor! So now I just threw the dough and it seems to have worked for me :)
Since you've experince in bread-making, the problem could be elsewhere. You did use instant yeast, right, not just the normal dry yeast? Yes, the water roux could be a cause, if not cooked to the right texture...
For baking don't place the tray on the top shelf, because the oven temperature is hottest on top (remember hot air rises - unless yours is fan-forced which will keep temp even inside). Since your oven only has min, med, max settings, it might be wise to buy an oven thermometer to put inside your oven to check the correct temperature. HTH.
Hi Sd, Thanks for the details on the kneading, your are really fantastic!!I never thought of the oven thermometer. Will get one and give the recipe another go.
By the way can you describe the texture of the water roux? Mine is like thick starchy transparent paste. I left it in the fridge for a week and it still looks the same. I just chuck it away this morning. Food lover
Food lover,
You're welcome :)
Yes, the water roux should be thick and starchy paste. The best way to determine if it's the right texture without using a thermometer is that when you stir, you can see the bottom of the pan, then it is ready.
Hi SD, At last i had success with my buns after the 3rd attempt!! It was so satisfying. My problem was the kneading and final proofing. Where I am, I only need half the time for proofing. Manage to get a WMF oven thermometer.Thanks so much again.
Food lover
Food lover,
So glad to hear you finally had success, well done !
Hi Seadragon,
I love your blog and your beautiful recipes for chinese buns thank you! In the "japanese-style bun dough" recipe. If I don't have the "Bread flour", can I use all plain flour (or all-pursose flour) instead? your respond will be much preciated, thanks!
Louisa from Canada
Louisa,
No, you cannot use all-purpose flour to subs bread flour here as the buns will not be fluffy and soft. Best to look for bread flour if you want to try making these buns. HTH.
Hi SD,
I was just wondering what kind of "milk powder" do you use for the Japanese sweet dough", because I went to the special baking store, but all they have is " instant skin milk powder", I'm not sure if this one is Ok. thank you!
Louisa
Louisa,
Yes, you can use the 'instant skim milk powder', I've used it before. However I usually use the 'full cream instant milk powder'. If you can find the full cream one use that as a preference.
Hi SD, I did try make bun 1st time, but fail it turn out so tough and heavy, not know where go wrong, try like you say test the 1st proved dough by poke into centre of the dough, hole remain, how to know is overproved? after bake it turn out skin is a bit dry, but next day become so heavy... need you advice. Thank you
Wah,
What about the final proof, any problems there?
I really can't answer your problems if you do not tell me some details about how you made your buns. There is no one solution to bread problems, they are usually related to how you knead, or proof your dough. Many people failed the first or even second times making bread, it is one of the most difficult thing to make for beginner. Did you substitute any ingredients? Are you in tropical countries, or in summer or in winter months at the moment? How long did you proof for? How long did you knead? Did you use a thermometer to judge your water-roux?
Hi SD, thank you for your time. I'm in S'pore and 1st time in bread-making, wanted to bake for my family for breakfast, so do it evening time. Start with 1/2 portion, don't want to waste ingredients, no subs. Water Roux without using a thermometer, cook and become thicken but not like dougt,soft texture cann't use the hand to handle? Kneading process occasionally pick up the dought and throw it down every few mins, 1/2 portion also take 10mins to knead? when add in butter cubed, is the butter in room temp or direct from frige? I used direct from frige and dough break into pcs but after kneading, finally form a dough again, right? After 1st proofing,tested dip a finger into flour and poke down, the hole remain, it look ok, punch down, knead briefly, divided into small balls, but forgotten to let if rest for 10mins, is it a problem? why? Shape and roll up like swiss-roll, let it proof to double of size. Did not brush with eggwash.After bake did not brush with butter, does it matter? how to know is cook after 12-15mins. what will happen if over bake? My bread look ok, but the problem is not soft/light/fluffy.....
Cheers & Regards,
Wah
Sorry for the late reply, been swamped with work lately.
OK, first of all It would be best to cook the full amount of water roux instead of doing only 1/2 amount. The reason is that 1/2 amount is too little to cook properly, the water might have evaporated too much while you are cooking it. That's why I have given the full amount for the dough recipe (to make 16 buns), not half. If you still want to made 1/2 amount of the recipe, I would recommend you still cook the full amount of the water roux, then just use 1/2 of it to make your buns. I would also recommend you invest in a thermometer if you're going to make this water-roux bread quite regularly.
The kneading time given is only approximate. It can be done in about 10 minutes if you are strong and have the energy and have made bread by hand many times before. For beginner, it might take 20 to 30 minutes depending on how strong you are. What you need to look for is the dough must be elastic and smooth before you can stop kneading, rather than depending on the time.
Did the dough doubled in size after first proving before you check with the poking? Maybe let it prove a bit longer to 2 1/2 times or three times the size next time if you have the time and know what you are doing. Longer proving produce a very flavourful bread/buns, and also airy fluffier buns/bread, just don't let it get to sour smelling stage, which indicates over proving.
Butter is best added at room temperature. As with making cakes, always have all your ingredients at room temperature before starting. Yeast needs warmth to activate, you don't want to shock the yeast by adding cold butter. By the way, are you sure you are using the 'instant yeast', and not 'active dry yeast'! If it is 'active dry yeast', you need to activate the yeast first in warm water before adding it to the main dough! Different types of yeast need different treatments before using!
Resting 10 minutes is very important after first proving, it is to relax the gluten in the dough, so that you can shape the dough easily.
From what you have descibed, I think the most porbable cause are your water roux and your kneading. Your water roux might have dried up too much because you only made 1/2 amount. Also, you might not have kneaded the dough to its fullest elasticity, so not soft and fluffy after baking. Since you are in S'pore, I don't see that proving the dough is a problem for you. Eggwashing or brushing with butter do not affect the texture of the bread, they only make the bread surface shiny.
For buns, 12 to 15 minutes of baking is about right. Overbaking just meant the bun surface will be burnt and very dark in colour, but really should not affect the texture inside, maybe just a little dryer than they should be. You can check by tapping the buns, they should sound hollow when they are baked. Hope these help.
Hi SD, Thank you for you advice, very detailed description of all step.
I will try out again and keep you update.
Appreciated for your time.
Have a nice day!
Wah
Hi SD, You're fantastic, I follow all the step as mention above, prepared 1 portion of water roux and keaded longer, the bread turn out soft/light/fluffy.
Appreciate it providing all the useful details. Woohoo! Thank you very much, and keep up the great work with blog.
Congrats on your successful attempt :)
Tried baking, but end product turns out hard and dry! Don't know where I have gone wrong. Haiz!
That sounds like either you did not cook the water-roux properly, or you did not knead and proof the dough properly. Please read some of the answers above for more info. Another thing is don't try to reduce the amount of water-roux you cook, if you only want to make half the amount of dough, please still cook the full amount of water-roux, then just use half of the cooked water-roux to make half amount of dough. Cooking too little water-roux may results in failed bread.
I found your blog and tried to make the sweet buns today. However, they came out not as fluffy as your picture. Will try again tomorrow.
thanks so much. You're so talent.
I love these bread, I always buy them at the japanese market near by.
Thank you for such a great site! I'm crazy about bread & I definitely found the right blog.
I made this. YaY! Everything turned out good except the bottom of my buns (LOL) are darker & harder too. What did I do wrong? Thanks again!
CT Zee
Hmm, I have never encountered that before. What type of baking tray did you use? Is it the dark coloured non-stick ones? May be the dark surface produced too much heat and overcooked the bottom! I preferred to used light-coloured baking tray, just lay a piece of baking paper on the tray and the buns won't stick.
Hi Seadragon,
I've just recently made tang zhong buns (first time making bread), but while the end result was soft, it was a bit chewy and there was a strong yeasty smell (a bit like beer) Is that normal? Also, I've tried cooking tang zhong so many times (wasted a lot of bread flour) and each time, the consistency is different, sometimes too runny, sometimes too thick, can't seem to get it right, I've even tried to use a digital thermometer. The kneading was also very tiring and messy (dough was very sticky), so i just used the dough hook of my mixer to knead it for about 7 minutes.
Thank you for your response Seadragon.
I did use a dark baking pan. I'll use a lighter one or baking paper next time. Thanks again!
Fei,
Sorry for the late reply as have been very busy. Did you reduce the amount of tangzhong when making it? Try to make the full amount as specified in my recipe. If you reduce the amount because you only want to make half, the cooking of the tangzhong is very difficult to manage unless you are very experienced!
The buns should NOT have yeasty smell, if so, you have done something wrong.
Also if the dough is too sticky, you have added too much water! I specifically said to adjust the amount of water as necessary!
Hi Seadragon,
love your blog and your recipes. You are amazing. So kind of you to share your recipes especially for someone like me who is such an amateur. Thank you so much.
You're welcome, and thanks for the kind words.
hi sd. can you use coffee creamer in place of milk powder?
rozelle,
I have not tried that myself, but if you want to use coffee creamer, you may try and see if it works or not.
Hi SD, can I use the pai pau recipe to make sweet bun? From your posted photo, the pai pau looks pillowy soft than the sweet bun.
Jo
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